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	<title>Comments on: States win over President on criminal law issue</title>
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	<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/</link>
	<description>The Supreme Court of the United States blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Cramer</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15666</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Cramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 12:49:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If this vote wasn&#039;t 9-0, why aren&#039;t there impeachment proceedings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If this vote wasn&#8217;t 9-0, why aren&#8217;t there impeachment proceedings?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Hallett</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15399</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Hallett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Mar 2008 08:40:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank God.  The sovereignty of the United States and of the state of Texas has been preserved and Federal authority has been kept in check. Finally, a Supreme court that gets.  Most importantly though, the families of Jenny Ertman and Elizabeth Pena (the 2 girls Medellin brutallay and savagely raped and murdered) are one step closer to seeing justice done for their slain loved ones. May Medellin finally pay the ultimate price for the ultimate crime and may God have mercy on his soul, he will need it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank God.  The sovereignty of the United States and of the state of Texas has been preserved and Federal authority has been kept in check. Finally, a Supreme court that gets.  Most importantly though, the families of Jenny Ertman and Elizabeth Pena (the 2 girls Medellin brutallay and savagely raped and murdered) are one step closer to seeing justice done for their slain loved ones. May Medellin finally pay the ultimate price for the ultimate crime and may God have mercy on his soul, he will need it.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Levine</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15390</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Levine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 23:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15390</guid>
		<description>Gilmore Harris - 

Re: Your comment in # 4. I would hope that other countries treat Americans the same way Texas treated  Medellin in this case. Namely, they would have gladly offered to let him speak to someone from his embassy HAD HE EVER BOTHERED TO ASK THAT REQUEST AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED. What Texas understandably refused to do was set aside his conviction and punishment after the fact simply because he decided to raise the issue years later on appeal in order to test a potential loophole.   Americans shouldn&#039;t fear similar treatment in other countries.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gilmore Harris &#8211; </p>
<p>Re: Your comment in # 4. I would hope that other countries treat Americans the same way Texas treated  Medellin in this case. Namely, they would have gladly offered to let him speak to someone from his embassy HAD HE EVER BOTHERED TO ASK THAT REQUEST AFTER HE WAS ARRESTED. What Texas understandably refused to do was set aside his conviction and punishment after the fact simply because he decided to raise the issue years later on appeal in order to test a potential loophole.   Americans shouldn&#8217;t fear similar treatment in other countries.</p>
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		<title>By: Justin Forlenza</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15384</link>
		<dc:creator>Justin Forlenza</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 20:23:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15384</guid>
		<description>In a way, isn&#039;t this a slightly pro-political branch decision as well?  The Court limits its own ability to enforce ICJ decisions, and says that Congress must act explicitly to execute the ICJ related treaties with specific legislation, and basically leaves enforcement of ICJ decisions to the political branches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In a way, isn&#8217;t this a slightly pro-political branch decision as well?  The Court limits its own ability to enforce ICJ decisions, and says that Congress must act explicitly to execute the ICJ related treaties with specific legislation, and basically leaves enforcement of ICJ decisions to the political branches.</p>
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		<title>By: Greg Davidson</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15383</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Davidson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15383</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution.&lt;/i&gt;

There&#039;s an easy way around that: figure out what their Constitution allows, and stick to that.

Of course, that requires having an honest Supreme Court that acknowledges a written Constitution, rather than making up a &quot;Living&quot; one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution.</i></p>
<p>There&#8217;s an easy way around that: figure out what their Constitution allows, and stick to that.</p>
<p>Of course, that requires having an honest Supreme Court that acknowledges a written Constitution, rather than making up a &#8220;Living&#8221; one.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Weir</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15381</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Weir</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 19:11:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15381</guid>
		<description>Because the only thing better than agreement between two branches of government that we don&#039;t need to signal to our allies and other interlocutors that we&#039;ll honor treaty obligations is agreement between ALL THREE branches of government that treaty obligations don&#039;t mean shit to the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Because the only thing better than agreement between two branches of government that we don&#8217;t need to signal to our allies and other interlocutors that we&#8217;ll honor treaty obligations is agreement between ALL THREE branches of government that treaty obligations don&#8217;t mean shit to the US.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques McKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques McKenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15379</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution.&lt;/i&gt; 

Except that is exactly how international politics work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution.</i> </p>
<p>Except that is exactly how international politics work.</p>
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		<title>By: rufus peckham</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15378</link>
		<dc:creator>rufus peckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 18:07:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15378</guid>
		<description>But Stevens only concurred in the judgement, he didn&#039;t join in the opinion.  So as far as the holding is concerned, there&#039;s only 5 votes.  Stevens&#039; vote is meaningless.  It didn&#039;t affect the case at all.  The result would have been the same if he recused himself.  And if Kennedy had given the liberals a 4th vote, I can guarantee Stevens would have given them a 5th.  I don&#039;t know why Stevens concurred but it had nothing to do with voet trading.

Also, this case was decided in the 1st sitting back in October so there weren&#039;t really any other cases outstanding for him to bargain over.  Do you really think he told Kennedy &quot;I&#039;ll concur here if you go with me in a couple months on Boumedienne&quot;?  That doesn&#039;t really fly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Stevens only concurred in the judgement, he didn&#8217;t join in the opinion.  So as far as the holding is concerned, there&#8217;s only 5 votes.  Stevens&#8217; vote is meaningless.  It didn&#8217;t affect the case at all.  The result would have been the same if he recused himself.  And if Kennedy had given the liberals a 4th vote, I can guarantee Stevens would have given them a 5th.  I don&#8217;t know why Stevens concurred but it had nothing to do with voet trading.</p>
<p>Also, this case was decided in the 1st sitting back in October so there weren&#8217;t really any other cases outstanding for him to bargain over.  Do you really think he told Kennedy &#8220;I&#8217;ll concur here if you go with me in a couple months on Boumedienne&#8221;?  That doesn&#8217;t really fly.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15375</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15375</guid>
		<description>&quot;I doubt Stevens traded his vote for anything. Roberts already had 5 votes so why would the conservatives need Stevens’ vote? Stevens had no leverage here. Nothing to offer.&quot;

Not true at all. 6-3 always looks better than 5-4; especially given Roberts attempts to make the court look more united. Of course, that doesn&#039;t mean he did trade his vote. But given that this is not a very Stevens-like opinion I do wonder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I doubt Stevens traded his vote for anything. Roberts already had 5 votes so why would the conservatives need Stevens’ vote? Stevens had no leverage here. Nothing to offer.&#8221;</p>
<p>Not true at all. 6-3 always looks better than 5-4; especially given Roberts attempts to make the court look more united. Of course, that doesn&#8217;t mean he did trade his vote. But given that this is not a very Stevens-like opinion I do wonder.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Barnard</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15373</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Barnard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:33:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15373</guid>
		<description>Another death penalty charade.

There are many people who believe that the death penalty is morally wrong. Some of them are Supreme Court Justices. Most of the leaders of the civilized world is also in this camp.

These Justices who will never vote for anything that will further the application of capital punishment. And legal advocates will look to find and use any barrier to putting a prisoner to death -- that&#039;s their solemn promise to themselves.

So that&#039;s what we&#039;re seeing here.  The ICJ (speaking for the civilized world) wants to force the U.S. to ban the death penalty, or at least to prevent anyone from being executed. The dissenters attach their unspoken views to the procedural arguments to further their cause. These tactics often are successful, and will continue to be used until all avenues are extinguished for each condemned man or woman.

But the majority of the Court has their own tactics. (They happen to reflect the majority of the country and the congress, but this is really irrelevant.) The majority has fashioned an interpretation of the treaties that serves their purpose -- not to let the world dictate to us on a matter of morality.

Unfortunately, both sides in this long-standing charade -- by using any tactic (actor, law, constitutional interpretation, treaty, etc.) to serve their desired end -- are harming those actors, laws, treaties, and indeed the Constituion itself by distorting them beyond recognition. The result is an even more fetid swamp without any clarity of argument, much less any resolution of a likely-unresolvable (and in the end, political) issue.

What&#039;s said and written by both sides in capital cases is hardly ever the real argument.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another death penalty charade.</p>
<p>There are many people who believe that the death penalty is morally wrong. Some of them are Supreme Court Justices. Most of the leaders of the civilized world is also in this camp.</p>
<p>These Justices who will never vote for anything that will further the application of capital punishment. And legal advocates will look to find and use any barrier to putting a prisoner to death &#8212; that&#8217;s their solemn promise to themselves.</p>
<p>So that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re seeing here.  The ICJ (speaking for the civilized world) wants to force the U.S. to ban the death penalty, or at least to prevent anyone from being executed. The dissenters attach their unspoken views to the procedural arguments to further their cause. These tactics often are successful, and will continue to be used until all avenues are extinguished for each condemned man or woman.</p>
<p>But the majority of the Court has their own tactics. (They happen to reflect the majority of the country and the congress, but this is really irrelevant.) The majority has fashioned an interpretation of the treaties that serves their purpose &#8212; not to let the world dictate to us on a matter of morality.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, both sides in this long-standing charade &#8212; by using any tactic (actor, law, constitutional interpretation, treaty, etc.) to serve their desired end &#8212; are harming those actors, laws, treaties, and indeed the Constituion itself by distorting them beyond recognition. The result is an even more fetid swamp without any clarity of argument, much less any resolution of a likely-unresolvable (and in the end, political) issue.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s said and written by both sides in capital cases is hardly ever the real argument.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Bennett</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15370</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:21:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15370</guid>
		<description>I am confused as to where Justice Roberts is coming from in the quotation at the end of this post.  Where does the Constitutional provision that &quot;...all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby&quot; come into play?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am confused as to where Justice Roberts is coming from in the quotation at the end of this post.  Where does the Constitutional provision that &#8220;&#8230;all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby&#8221; come into play?</p>
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		<title>By: rufus peckham</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15369</link>
		<dc:creator>rufus peckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:20:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15369</guid>
		<description>I doubt Stevens traded his vote for anything.  Roberts already had 5 votes so why would the conservatives need Stevens&#039; vote?  Stevens had no leverage here.  Nothing to offer.

Also, if you look at the remaining cases and the opinons thus far, it&#039;s clear that the conservatives won Williams as well with either Scalia or Alito writing and as far as Boumedienne, it&#039;s either Kennedy, Ginsburg or Souter with Kennedy by far the most likely author.  If it is Kennedy, there&#039;s a good chance the conservatives won that one as well as Stevens would have written it if the liberals had won.

When you add in the arguments in Baze, Crawford and Heller, it looks like another good term for the conservatives all around.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I doubt Stevens traded his vote for anything.  Roberts already had 5 votes so why would the conservatives need Stevens&#8217; vote?  Stevens had no leverage here.  Nothing to offer.</p>
<p>Also, if you look at the remaining cases and the opinons thus far, it&#8217;s clear that the conservatives won Williams as well with either Scalia or Alito writing and as far as Boumedienne, it&#8217;s either Kennedy, Ginsburg or Souter with Kennedy by far the most likely author.  If it is Kennedy, there&#8217;s a good chance the conservatives won that one as well as Stevens would have written it if the liberals had won.</p>
<p>When you add in the arguments in Baze, Crawford and Heller, it looks like another good term for the conservatives all around.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15363</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15363</guid>
		<description>Jacques. I am not sure that I agree with you on either point. There were other ways to get to the same result that I think more sound. I think this opinion severely limits executive power. &quot;An agreement to abide by the result of an international adjudication can be a treaty obligation like
any other, so long as the agreement is consistent with the Constitution.&quot;

The problem with this statement is that this is not the way international politics work. That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution. For a contract to bind, it must be met with full faith and credit by other parties. I  can assure you that if I were a foreign power I would be far more hesitant to agree with the US on a treaty regarding anything, given the fact that years later it could be overturned. This is especially true given that it was overturned on so flimsy a reason. So while I would agree that this opinion does not directly limit the power of the president beyond this one case, I believe its practical effect will be lessen the trust that other countries place in the president treaty-making powers and that indirectly limits his power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacques. I am not sure that I agree with you on either point. There were other ways to get to the same result that I think more sound. I think this opinion severely limits executive power. &#8220;An agreement to abide by the result of an international adjudication can be a treaty obligation like<br />
any other, so long as the agreement is consistent with the Constitution.&#8221;</p>
<p>The problem with this statement is that this is not the way international politics work. That may be true domestically, but how comfortable would you feel as a foreign power making a treaty only to find out years later that what you thought you had agreed to was, in fact, a violation of the other parties constitution. For a contract to bind, it must be met with full faith and credit by other parties. I  can assure you that if I were a foreign power I would be far more hesitant to agree with the US on a treaty regarding anything, given the fact that years later it could be overturned. This is especially true given that it was overturned on so flimsy a reason. So while I would agree that this opinion does not directly limit the power of the president beyond this one case, I believe its practical effect will be lessen the trust that other countries place in the president treaty-making powers and that indirectly limits his power.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques McKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15362</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques McKenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15362</guid>
		<description>I agree that the basis for the result is strained. But finding the treaty not self-executing is how you get there. Given that, footnote 13 leaves the door open for Executive acts to strike down state law in factually different cases. That&#039;s not much of a rejection at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the basis for the result is strained. But finding the treaty not self-executing is how you get there. Given that, footnote 13 leaves the door open for Executive acts to strike down state law in factually different cases. That&#8217;s not much of a rejection at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/comment-page-1/#comment-15361</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Mar 2008 16:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/states-win-over-president-on-criminal-law-issue/#comment-15361</guid>
		<description>Jacques. I think so. The majority position in footnote 13 totally ignores that the president is not making new federal law as the treaty has already been approved by congress.  In foot not five the majority claims: 

&quot;Rather, the “undertakes to comply” language confirms that
further action to give effect to an ICJ judgment was contemplated,
contrary to the dissent’s position that such judgments constitute
directly enforceable federal law, without more.&quot;

That is, uh, to put it mildly...strained. It is hardly natural as Stevens contends (what the heck did he trade his vote for???). Undertake means to &quot;do&quot; or to &quot;obligate&quot;. The court holding is that undertakes means exactly the opposite of its plain meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacques. I think so. The majority position in footnote 13 totally ignores that the president is not making new federal law as the treaty has already been approved by congress.  In foot not five the majority claims: </p>
<p>&#8220;Rather, the “undertakes to comply” language confirms that<br />
further action to give effect to an ICJ judgment was contemplated,<br />
contrary to the dissent’s position that such judgments constitute<br />
directly enforceable federal law, without more.&#8221;</p>
<p>That is, uh, to put it mildly&#8230;strained. It is hardly natural as Stevens contends (what the heck did he trade his vote for???). Undertake means to &#8220;do&#8221; or to &#8220;obligate&#8221;. The court holding is that undertakes means exactly the opposite of its plain meaning.</p>
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