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	<title>Comments on: First decision to apply Ayotte ruling</title>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8751</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2006 00:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Is there an argument that once the fetus is even partially outside the womb, it is &quot;born&quot; and therefore a person?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there an argument that once the fetus is even partially outside the womb, it is &#8220;born&#8221; and therefore a person?</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8750</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 12:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The oblique reference to the commerce clause, frankly, fails dismally in the mustard-cutting stakes. I suppose the argument goes that you have to be born to participate in interstate commerce; I have a similar idea: we should pass a law regulating handgun ownership because if you own a handgun it has to have been transported across state lines at some point. Or, perhaps Congress can prohibit my growing potatoes in my back yard, since that &lt;i&gt;might&lt;/i&gt; affect my participation in interstate commerce?

But wait a minute, I thought us benighted FedSoc types didn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;like&lt;/i&gt; laws like that? How we scorned the expansion of the commerce clause into a blank cheque; &quot;&lt;i&gt;if we were to accept the Government&#039;s arguments, we are hard pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate&lt;/i&gt;.&quot; Did we not cheer when &lt;i&gt;Lopez&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Morrison&lt;/i&gt; began to chip away at what Justice Thomas called &quot;&lt;i&gt;this rootless and malleable standard . . . [that] encourage[s] the Federal Government to persist in its view that the Commerce Clause has virtually no limits&lt;/i&gt;&quot;?

Calling it a fig leaf seems over generous. The act briefly and obliquely mentions it once, as if as an afterthought; it&#039;s tantamount to flaunting its status.

Neither can I accept Rufus&#039; argument about the due process clause; while I think it&#039;s a stretch of the due process clause in any instance, the more fatal problem is that one would have to demonstrate that the original understanding of &quot;person&quot; in 1868 included an unborn child, a contention I think to be a forlorn prospect. I would be delighted to be shown some research that indicates conclusively (or even at all) that they were.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The oblique reference to the commerce clause, frankly, fails dismally in the mustard-cutting stakes. I suppose the argument goes that you have to be born to participate in interstate commerce; I have a similar idea: we should pass a law regulating handgun ownership because if you own a handgun it has to have been transported across state lines at some point. Or, perhaps Congress can prohibit my growing potatoes in my back yard, since that <i>might</i> affect my participation in interstate commerce?</p>
<p>But wait a minute, I thought us benighted FedSoc types didn&#8217;t <i>like</i> laws like that? How we scorned the expansion of the commerce clause into a blank cheque; &#8220;<i>if we were to accept the Government&#8217;s arguments, we are hard pressed to posit any activity by an individual that Congress is without power to regulate</i>.&#8221; Did we not cheer when <i>Lopez</i> and <i>Morrison</i> began to chip away at what Justice Thomas called &#8220;<i>this rootless and malleable standard . . . [that] encourage[s] the Federal Government to persist in its view that the Commerce Clause has virtually no limits</i>&#8220;?</p>
<p>Calling it a fig leaf seems over generous. The act briefly and obliquely mentions it once, as if as an afterthought; it&#8217;s tantamount to flaunting its status.</p>
<p>Neither can I accept Rufus&#8217; argument about the due process clause; while I think it&#8217;s a stretch of the due process clause in any instance, the more fatal problem is that one would have to demonstrate that the original understanding of &#8220;person&#8221; in 1868 included an unborn child, a contention I think to be a forlorn prospect. I would be delighted to be shown some research that indicates conclusively (or even at all) that they were.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Scheidegger</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8749</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Scheidegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 03:45:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>See footnote 7 of Justice Ginsburg&#039;s opinion in Cutter v. Wilkinson.  The Court does not generally consider constitutional challenges not considered in the court below.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>See footnote 7 of Justice Ginsburg&#8217;s opinion in Cutter v. Wilkinson.  The Court does not generally consider constitutional challenges not considered in the court below.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8748</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 03:19:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In response to Simon, the authorization offered, figleaf or not, is thus: &quot;Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.&quot;

I guess this includes those with magazines in their waiting room from other states, but so it goes. But, hey, I agree with the sentiment. A column in National Review did as well. If this reaches the SC, Justice Thomas should have a concurring statement that he only is upholding the law because the Commerce Clause claim was not raised.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Simon, the authorization offered, figleaf or not, is thus: &#8220;Any physician who, in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce, knowingly performs a partial-birth abortion and thereby kills a human fetus shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess this includes those with magazines in their waiting room from other states, but so it goes. But, hey, I agree with the sentiment. A column in National Review did as well. If this reaches the SC, Justice Thomas should have a concurring statement that he only is upholding the law because the Commerce Clause claim was not raised.</p>
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		<title>By: rufus peckham</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8747</link>
		<dc:creator>rufus peckham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 01:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps it falls under Congress&#039; Section 5 power to enforce the due process clause of the 14th as it regards to victims of partial birth abortion.  Although, the conservatives on the SC don&#039;t seem to be too enthralled at using sec 5 to enforce the due process clause.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps it falls under Congress&#8217; Section 5 power to enforce the due process clause of the 14th as it regards to victims of partial birth abortion.  Although, the conservatives on the SC don&#8217;t seem to be too enthralled at using sec 5 to enforce the due process clause.</p>
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		<title>By: BlueCollarGuy</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8746</link>
		<dc:creator>BlueCollarGuy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 00:23:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/#comment-8746</guid>
		<description>Simon: &lt;i&gt;&quot;the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, 117 Stat. 1201, makes absolutely no attempt to justify the authority on which it rests.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;p&gt;

Sure it does, it justifies it with the interstate commerce clause, the clause that can justify anything. In that respect the law is narrow, however that is neither here nor there since the intent of the law is to overturn Stenberg.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon: <i>&#8220;the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, 117 Stat. 1201, makes absolutely no attempt to justify the authority on which it rests.&#8221;</i>
<p>Sure it does, it justifies it with the interstate commerce clause, the clause that can justify anything. In that respect the law is narrow, however that is neither here nor there since the intent of the law is to overturn Stenberg.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8745</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 23:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/#comment-8745</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s an indicator of how topsy-turvy Constitutional jurisprudence has gotten when it can be said - with some accuracy, in truth - that an argument which raises the constitutional authority for Congress to enact a statute can be described as a non-starter. the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, &lt;a href=&quot;http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_public_laws&amp;docid=f:publ105.108.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;117 Stat. 1201&lt;/a&gt;, makes absolutely no attempt to justify the authority on which it rests. In its majesterial length of eight pages, it describes in detail the horrors of the D&amp;E procedure, and discusses the needs for exceptions; it goes on to note that &quot;&lt;i&gt;[a] ban on the partial-birth abortion procedure will therefore advance the health interests of pregnant women seeking to terminate a pregnancy . . . [and] [i]n light of this overwhelming evidence, Congress and the States have a compelling interest in prohibiting partial-birth abortions&lt;/i&gt;.&quot; §2(14)(F) et seq. None of which is necessarily untrue, but the FPBA never really addresses itself to a question that I would require Congress to place at the head of every bill it passes: its Constitutional authority for enacting the statute in the first place.

There&#039;s a great quote from Justice Scalia, &quot;&lt;i&gt;[i]f you care passionately about something has become the only test to determine if something is constitutional. How passionately do you care?&lt;/i&gt;&quot; This act is a clear demonstration of that much, since its own sense of itself is overwhelming moral passion - passion that I share, granted - that this is a terrible act, and that &lt;i&gt;somebody&lt;/i&gt; should step into the breach and ban it. But, as Justice Black put it, &quot;&lt;i&gt;[t]he United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution&lt;/i&gt;&quot; (&lt;i&gt;Reid v. Covert&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0354_0001_ZO.html#pg_6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;354 U.S. 1&lt;/a&gt;) (1957); that holds as much true when it means striking down a statute I agree with as when it means striking down one I do not agree with.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s an indicator of how topsy-turvy Constitutional jurisprudence has gotten when it can be said &#8211; with some accuracy, in truth &#8211; that an argument which raises the constitutional authority for Congress to enact a statute can be described as a non-starter. the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, <a href="http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=108_cong_public_laws&#038;docid=f:publ105.108.pdf" rel="nofollow">117 Stat. 1201</a>, makes absolutely no attempt to justify the authority on which it rests. In its majesterial length of eight pages, it describes in detail the horrors of the D&#038;E procedure, and discusses the needs for exceptions; it goes on to note that &#8220;<i>[a] ban on the partial-birth abortion procedure will therefore advance the health interests of pregnant women seeking to terminate a pregnancy . . . [and] [i]n light of this overwhelming evidence, Congress and the States have a compelling interest in prohibiting partial-birth abortions</i>.&#8221; §2(14)(F) et seq. None of which is necessarily untrue, but the FPBA never really addresses itself to a question that I would require Congress to place at the head of every bill it passes: its Constitutional authority for enacting the statute in the first place.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a great quote from Justice Scalia, &#8220;<i>[i]f you care passionately about something has become the only test to determine if something is constitutional. How passionately do you care?</i>&#8221; This act is a clear demonstration of that much, since its own sense of itself is overwhelming moral passion &#8211; passion that I share, granted &#8211; that this is a terrible act, and that <i>somebody</i> should step into the breach and ban it. But, as Justice Black put it, &#8220;<i>[t]he United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution</i>&#8221; (<i>Reid v. Covert</i>, <a href="http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/historics/USSC_CR_0354_0001_ZO.html#pg_6" rel="nofollow">354 U.S. 1</a>) (1957); that holds as much true when it means striking down a statute I agree with as when it means striking down one I do not agree with.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve M</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8744</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:42:18 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that it seems irrelevant whether an individual judge finds something &quot;morally unacceptable,&quot; but as we all know, activist judges come only from the left.

Simon raises an interesting question.  Have ANY of the litigants challenging the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act in the various federal proceedings even raised the Commerce Clause issue?  My sense is that it is such a guaranteed loser that they may not have bothered.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it seems irrelevant whether an individual judge finds something &#8220;morally unacceptable,&#8221; but as we all know, activist judges come only from the left.</p>
<p>Simon raises an interesting question.  Have ANY of the litigants challenging the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act in the various federal proceedings even raised the Commerce Clause issue?  My sense is that it is such a guaranteed loser that they may not have bothered.</p>
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		<title>By: rodgerlodger</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8743</link>
		<dc:creator>rodgerlodger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/#comment-8743</guid>
		<description>According to post, 2d Cir Judge Straub voted to uphold the constitutionality of a partial birth ban on abortions saying &quot;I find the current expansion of the right to terminate a pregnancy to cover a child in the process of being born morally, ethically, and legally unaccepable,&quot; would have upheld the federal ban.
Does this judge really think he was asked whether a procedure is morally, ethically, and legally (un)acceptable?  Is that what he thinks the constitutionality of a statute turns on? being taken out of context, the man is a judicial *@!!@*.  Especially &quot;legally unacceptable&quot;.  Now there&#039;s an empty phrase.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to post, 2d Cir Judge Straub voted to uphold the constitutionality of a partial birth ban on abortions saying &#8220;I find the current expansion of the right to terminate a pregnancy to cover a child in the process of being born morally, ethically, and legally unaccepable,&#8221; would have upheld the federal ban.<br />
Does this judge really think he was asked whether a procedure is morally, ethically, and legally (un)acceptable?  Is that what he thinks the constitutionality of a statute turns on? being taken out of context, the man is a judicial *@!!@*.  Especially &#8220;legally unacceptable&#8221;.  Now there&#8217;s an empty phrase.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/comment-page-1/#comment-8742</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 20:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/first-decision-to-apply-ayotte-ruling/#comment-8742</guid>
		<description>I agree that the FPBA is unconstitutional, but I do not agree with the Ninth Circuit&#039;s reasoning.

The panel notes that the District Court&#039;s holding:&lt;blockquote&gt;rested on its determination that the Act violated the Constitution in three respects. First, the district court found the Act unconstitutional because it imposed an undue burden on a woman’s right to choose to terminate her pregnancy before viability . . . Second, the district court found the Act unconstitutionally vague. The court reasoned that the term “partial-birth abortion” was not recognized in the medical community, and the phrases “living fetus,” “deliberately and intentionally,” and “overt act” failed to put physicians on notice as to what procedures would violate the statute. As a result, the district court found that the Act deprived physicians of fair notice and encouraged arbitrary enforcement . . . Third, the district court found the Act unconstitutional because it failed to include a health exception.&lt;/blockquote&gt;(Slip op. at 12) The Ninth Circuit panel accepts this rationale almost as is:&lt;blockquote&gt;We hold that the Act is unconstitutional for three distinct reasons, each of which is sufficient to justify the district court’s holding. First, the Act lacks the constitutionally required health exception. Second, it imposes an undue burden on women’s ability to obtain previability abortions. Third, it is unconstitutionally vague, depriving physicians of fair notice of what it prohibits and encouraging arbitrary enforcement.&lt;/blockquote&gt;(Id. at 16).

The Ninth Circuit failed to contemplate the obvious question on which any action against the FPBA should turn: did Congress have the authority to enact this statute in the first place? Answer that question in the negative, and the entirety of the litigation thusfar is nullified; it becomes irrelevant whether the act places an undue burden, it becomes irrelevant whether the statute&#039;s terms are &quot;unconstitutionally vague,&quot; and it becomes irrelevant whether it includes a health exception.

For these reasons, I concur &lt;i&gt;only&lt;/i&gt; in the judgement - situation normal where the Ninth Circuit is concerned, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://simondodd.org/noise2signal/default.asp?view=singleentry&amp;entry=227&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The other side of the knife&lt;/a&gt;, 11/4/2005 (concurring in the &lt;i&gt;Fields v. Palmdale School District&lt;/i&gt; verdict). I would declare the act unconstitutional because it lacks a basis in the Constitutional grant of power to Congress.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the FPBA is unconstitutional, but I do not agree with the Ninth Circuit&#8217;s reasoning.</p>
<p>The panel notes that the District Court&#8217;s holding:<br />
<blockquote>rested on its determination that the Act violated the Constitution in three respects. First, the district court found the Act unconstitutional because it imposed an undue burden on a woman’s right to choose to terminate her pregnancy before viability . . . Second, the district court found the Act unconstitutionally vague. The court reasoned that the term “partial-birth abortion” was not recognized in the medical community, and the phrases “living fetus,” “deliberately and intentionally,” and “overt act” failed to put physicians on notice as to what procedures would violate the statute. As a result, the district court found that the Act deprived physicians of fair notice and encouraged arbitrary enforcement . . . Third, the district court found the Act unconstitutional because it failed to include a health exception.</p></blockquote>
<p>(Slip op. at 12) The Ninth Circuit panel accepts this rationale almost as is:<br />
<blockquote>We hold that the Act is unconstitutional for three distinct reasons, each of which is sufficient to justify the district court’s holding. First, the Act lacks the constitutionally required health exception. Second, it imposes an undue burden on women’s ability to obtain previability abortions. Third, it is unconstitutionally vague, depriving physicians of fair notice of what it prohibits and encouraging arbitrary enforcement.</p></blockquote>
<p>(Id. at 16).</p>
<p>The Ninth Circuit failed to contemplate the obvious question on which any action against the FPBA should turn: did Congress have the authority to enact this statute in the first place? Answer that question in the negative, and the entirety of the litigation thusfar is nullified; it becomes irrelevant whether the act places an undue burden, it becomes irrelevant whether the statute&#8217;s terms are &#8220;unconstitutionally vague,&#8221; and it becomes irrelevant whether it includes a health exception.</p>
<p>For these reasons, I concur <i>only</i> in the judgement &#8211; situation normal where the Ninth Circuit is concerned, see <a href="http://simondodd.org/noise2signal/default.asp?view=singleentry&#038;entry=227" rel="nofollow">The other side of the knife</a>, 11/4/2005 (concurring in the <i>Fields v. Palmdale School District</i> verdict). I would declare the act unconstitutional because it lacks a basis in the Constitutional grant of power to Congress.</p>
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