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	<title>Comments on: An ancient wrong and the Constitution</title>
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	<description>The Supreme Court of the United States blog</description>
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		<title>By: Martha Salazar</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-15014</link>
		<dc:creator>Martha Salazar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Mar 2008 16:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Can a lawsuit be brought against someone that interfers with your marriage in texas

Alienation of Affection</description>
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<p>Alienation of Affection</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-13805</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The comments here reflect an issue that to anyones logical mind should be considered by our Federal Supreme court.  The wholesale discrimination of an entire gender, on its face warrants consideration.   

I suspect that the billion dollar divorce industry that thrives on the the emotional carnage of relationships gone sour would take a huge hit if our laws worked to make our &quot;dis-unions&quot; more equitable.  

I read recently that its unwritten knowledge between attorneys that there should be no mention of a settlement between parties until 40% of the assets are spent on legal fees.  At those rates, the average middle class divorce can run up fee&#039;s into the six figures.  Imagine finding yourself in a bad marriage and realizing it&#039;s going to cost you $100,000 or more to get out of it!  And that&#039;s the average.  High profile divorces cost way more then that.  David Hasselhoff (sp?) is reported to have spent over a million dollars on his still undone divorce.  A million dollars?  Just to get a divorce?  I bet the settlement wont even be that high.

I met a divorce atty in the early 90&#039;s.  His annual REPORTED income: $750,000.  We&#039;ve got to do something about this, or no male in his right mind would say &quot;I Do&quot; ever again.

If we remember that the jurists who could ultimately fix this problem...are attorneys...whose friends are attorney&#039;s... Why would they divest themselves of the potential to rake in that kind of money?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comments here reflect an issue that to anyones logical mind should be considered by our Federal Supreme court.  The wholesale discrimination of an entire gender, on its face warrants consideration.   </p>
<p>I suspect that the billion dollar divorce industry that thrives on the the emotional carnage of relationships gone sour would take a huge hit if our laws worked to make our &#8220;dis-unions&#8221; more equitable.  </p>
<p>I read recently that its unwritten knowledge between attorneys that there should be no mention of a settlement between parties until 40% of the assets are spent on legal fees.  At those rates, the average middle class divorce can run up fee&#8217;s into the six figures.  Imagine finding yourself in a bad marriage and realizing it&#8217;s going to cost you $100,000 or more to get out of it!  And that&#8217;s the average.  High profile divorces cost way more then that.  David Hasselhoff (sp?) is reported to have spent over a million dollars on his still undone divorce.  A million dollars?  Just to get a divorce?  I bet the settlement wont even be that high.</p>
<p>I met a divorce atty in the early 90&#8217;s.  His annual REPORTED income: $750,000.  We&#8217;ve got to do something about this, or no male in his right mind would say &#8220;I Do&#8221; ever again.</p>
<p>If we remember that the jurists who could ultimately fix this problem&#8230;are attorneys&#8230;whose friends are attorney&#8217;s&#8230; Why would they divest themselves of the potential to rake in that kind of money?</p>
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		<title>By: alex gonzales</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12917</link>
		<dc:creator>alex gonzales</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:57:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12917</guid>
		<description>Can a lawsuit be brought against someone that interfers with your marriage in texas</description>
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		<title>By: Arnetia Lunkin</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12500</link>
		<dc:creator>Arnetia Lunkin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12500</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m in favor of a new law &quot;unilateral consint&quot; for divorce,not just for the sake of the well being of kids but for the entirety of family quality of life. There are broken contract laws for purchasing goods &quot;wether homes,cars ect. There should be much stiffer penalty involved in breaking a covenant of marriage. The party that intentionaly comes between a marraige should be sued for causing malicious harm to a spouse. When they work with the adulterer and influence decisionsby allowing the spouse to move in with them before there was a binding legal seperation. There should be a law against the adulterer  that is also married and they interfer in councelling sessions to pull the spouse further away from the marriage. The person which broke up my marriage by asking him to work in her home not long after she was employed on his daytime job. This person has cause nothing but pain and hardship for my well being. What steps do I take to get justice for the pain that the person caused me without any remorse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in favor of a new law &#8220;unilateral consint&#8221; for divorce,not just for the sake of the well being of kids but for the entirety of family quality of life. There are broken contract laws for purchasing goods &#8220;wether homes,cars ect. There should be much stiffer penalty involved in breaking a covenant of marriage. The party that intentionaly comes between a marraige should be sued for causing malicious harm to a spouse. When they work with the adulterer and influence decisionsby allowing the spouse to move in with them before there was a binding legal seperation. There should be a law against the adulterer  that is also married and they interfer in councelling sessions to pull the spouse further away from the marriage. The person which broke up my marriage by asking him to work in her home not long after she was employed on his daytime job. This person has cause nothing but pain and hardship for my well being. What steps do I take to get justice for the pain that the person caused me without any remorse.</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Alienation of affection&#8221; plea denied &#124; SCOTUSblog</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12400</link>
		<dc:creator>&#8220;Alienation of affection&#8221; plea denied &#124; SCOTUSblog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 18:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12400</guid>
		<description>[...] The request and the case waa discussed in this post. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The request and the case waa discussed in this post. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Chee Foong Chew</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12387</link>
		<dc:creator>Chee Foong Chew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 08:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12387</guid>
		<description>Marc and Hans,

Why in your opinion does the court not take these cases? If family law is gender bias, should it not be struck down as unconsitutional? I find it a tad bit ironic that a court that rountinely brings up racial bias cases refused to address any of these cases. Are some forms of discrimination more tolerable than some?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marc and Hans,</p>
<p>Why in your opinion does the court not take these cases? If family law is gender bias, should it not be struck down as unconsitutional? I find it a tad bit ironic that a court that rountinely brings up racial bias cases refused to address any of these cases. Are some forms of discrimination more tolerable than some?</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12380</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 22:07:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12380</guid>
		<description>I agree with Hans Bader&#039;s points (and could give a dozen more examples). I think he&#039;s just demonstrating that the Court has shown no interest in these types of cases, and it&#039;s unlikely to do so now, even if there&#039;s a colorable Federal issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Hans Bader&#8217;s points (and could give a dozen more examples). I think he&#8217;s just demonstrating that the Court has shown no interest in these types of cases, and it&#8217;s unlikely to do so now, even if there&#8217;s a colorable Federal issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacques MacKenzie</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12379</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques MacKenzie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12379</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Family law is pervaded by gender bias against male litigants. Similarly situated litigants are not treated alike when they are of different genders. Romantic paternalism is the order of the day.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, &lt;i&gt;that&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; an issue. But I don&#039;t think an Equal Protection and/or Thirteenth Amendment (perpetual garnishment is slavery, slavery, I say!) argument was properly raised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Family law is pervaded by gender bias against male litigants. Similarly situated litigants are not treated alike when they are of different genders. Romantic paternalism is the order of the day.</i></p>
<p>Well, <i>that&#8217;s</i> an issue. But I don&#8217;t think an Equal Protection and/or Thirteenth Amendment (perpetual garnishment is slavery, slavery, I say!) argument was properly raised.</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Bader</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12374</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Bader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:06:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12374</guid>
		<description>My citation to the Asgari case in the comment above this one gave the wrong date.  The case was decided in 2000, not 2002.  The proper citation is Asgari v. Asgari, 33 Va.App. 393, 533 S.E.2d 643 (2000).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My citation to the Asgari case in the comment above this one gave the wrong date.  The case was decided in 2000, not 2002.  The proper citation is Asgari v. Asgari, 33 Va.App. 393, 533 S.E.2d 643 (2000).</p>
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		<title>By: Hans Bader</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12373</link>
		<dc:creator>Hans Bader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12373</guid>
		<description>This is a trivial family-law case compared to the ones the Supreme Court rejects all the time.

For more weighty cases get turned away without explanation.

The court turned away a case involving a Texas man forced to pay child support for three children who weren&#039;t biologically his (his wife cheated, but the kids were deemed his since they were conceived during the marriage), and yet denied any right to visit those children, effectively denying him his 14th Amendment parental rights while imposing on him parental obligations.

The federal courts also turn away cases involving men jailed for not paying child support that they cannot afford to pay, after hearings in which they were denied the right to counsel (never mind that criminal defendants facing jail are entitled to counsel under Gideon), misapplying abstention doctrines.  

(For those who ask why someone would get a divorce if they can&#039;t afford child support, I would point out that it is usually the custodial parent who seeks the divorce -- wives initiate two-thirds of all divorces -- and in many states, like Massachusetts, child support awards for middle-income families substantially exceed what such families actually spend on raising their children).

There&#039;s a classic circuit split making a grant of certiorari appropriate, since the state appellate courts are split over whether or not civil contemnors like child support obligors are entitled to appointed counsel before being jailed.  (See, e.g., the Washington State Supreme Court&#039;s Tetro decision).

But the justices haven&#039;t shown any interest in the past in resolving that split.

Nor have they shown any interest in enforcing their own 1979 decision in Orr v. Orr, that family law decisions such as awards of alimony are supposed to be gender neutral.

Family law is pervaded by gender bias against male litigants.  Similarly situated litigants are not treated alike when they are of different genders.  Romantic paternalism is the order of the day.

Consider a relatively mild example: the courts of the state where many of the justices live: Virginia, whose courts are no more biased than those of the average state.

In Virginia, the Court of Appeals ordered a man who made only one-fifth of what his wife made, and who was unemployed and the primary caregiver of the couple&#039;s offspring, to pay his wife 40 percent of his meager disability pension, and denied him any spousal support (Asgari v. Asgari (2002)).  

By contrast, men are routinely ordered to pay alimony to their ex-wives even when the ex-wife&#039;s income is fairly similar to the husband&#039;s, and even if the ex-wife is able-bodied and only &quot;needs&quot; alimony because her own salary, which is quite sufficient to support a middle-class lifestyle, is not sufficient to support the lavish lifestyle to which she is accustomed.

In an unpublished case, the court ordered a man to pay more than half his net income in alimony to his drunken wife, including money to pay for a car that she illegally drove after getting convicted for drunk driving and getting her license was suspended.  (Judge Benton dissented).

And yet, in another case, it denied a man who a small fraction of what his wife made any alimony, citing his alcoholism.  

Apparently, alcoholism is grounds for sympathy and an increase in alimony when the alimony-seeker is a wife, and grounds for denial of alimony when the alimony-seeker is a husband.

While drunkenness is apparently disqualifying for a man, greater sins are not disqualifying for a woman.

An adulterous woman received alimony in Calvin v. Calvin even though the court admitted her treatment of her blameless husband was &quot;vindictive and cruel,&quot; and even though Virginia law creates a strong presumption against alimony to adulterous spouses, statutorily banning alimony to an adulterous spouse unless it would be &quot;manifestly unjust&quot; to deny it in light of both comparative fault and economic factors.

Similarly, a woman who stabbed her truck-driver ex-husband received alimony.

(In case you are wondering, I am not divorced, don&#039;t owe child support, and am happily married).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a trivial family-law case compared to the ones the Supreme Court rejects all the time.</p>
<p>For more weighty cases get turned away without explanation.</p>
<p>The court turned away a case involving a Texas man forced to pay child support for three children who weren&#8217;t biologically his (his wife cheated, but the kids were deemed his since they were conceived during the marriage), and yet denied any right to visit those children, effectively denying him his 14th Amendment parental rights while imposing on him parental obligations.</p>
<p>The federal courts also turn away cases involving men jailed for not paying child support that they cannot afford to pay, after hearings in which they were denied the right to counsel (never mind that criminal defendants facing jail are entitled to counsel under Gideon), misapplying abstention doctrines.  </p>
<p>(For those who ask why someone would get a divorce if they can&#8217;t afford child support, I would point out that it is usually the custodial parent who seeks the divorce &#8212; wives initiate two-thirds of all divorces &#8212; and in many states, like Massachusetts, child support awards for middle-income families substantially exceed what such families actually spend on raising their children).</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a classic circuit split making a grant of certiorari appropriate, since the state appellate courts are split over whether or not civil contemnors like child support obligors are entitled to appointed counsel before being jailed.  (See, e.g., the Washington State Supreme Court&#8217;s Tetro decision).</p>
<p>But the justices haven&#8217;t shown any interest in the past in resolving that split.</p>
<p>Nor have they shown any interest in enforcing their own 1979 decision in Orr v. Orr, that family law decisions such as awards of alimony are supposed to be gender neutral.</p>
<p>Family law is pervaded by gender bias against male litigants.  Similarly situated litigants are not treated alike when they are of different genders.  Romantic paternalism is the order of the day.</p>
<p>Consider a relatively mild example: the courts of the state where many of the justices live: Virginia, whose courts are no more biased than those of the average state.</p>
<p>In Virginia, the Court of Appeals ordered a man who made only one-fifth of what his wife made, and who was unemployed and the primary caregiver of the couple&#8217;s offspring, to pay his wife 40 percent of his meager disability pension, and denied him any spousal support (Asgari v. Asgari (2002)).  </p>
<p>By contrast, men are routinely ordered to pay alimony to their ex-wives even when the ex-wife&#8217;s income is fairly similar to the husband&#8217;s, and even if the ex-wife is able-bodied and only &#8220;needs&#8221; alimony because her own salary, which is quite sufficient to support a middle-class lifestyle, is not sufficient to support the lavish lifestyle to which she is accustomed.</p>
<p>In an unpublished case, the court ordered a man to pay more than half his net income in alimony to his drunken wife, including money to pay for a car that she illegally drove after getting convicted for drunk driving and getting her license was suspended.  (Judge Benton dissented).</p>
<p>And yet, in another case, it denied a man who a small fraction of what his wife made any alimony, citing his alcoholism.  </p>
<p>Apparently, alcoholism is grounds for sympathy and an increase in alimony when the alimony-seeker is a wife, and grounds for denial of alimony when the alimony-seeker is a husband.</p>
<p>While drunkenness is apparently disqualifying for a man, greater sins are not disqualifying for a woman.</p>
<p>An adulterous woman received alimony in Calvin v. Calvin even though the court admitted her treatment of her blameless husband was &#8220;vindictive and cruel,&#8221; and even though Virginia law creates a strong presumption against alimony to adulterous spouses, statutorily banning alimony to an adulterous spouse unless it would be &#8220;manifestly unjust&#8221; to deny it in light of both comparative fault and economic factors.</p>
<p>Similarly, a woman who stabbed her truck-driver ex-husband received alimony.</p>
<p>(In case you are wondering, I am not divorced, don&#8217;t owe child support, and am happily married).</p>
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		<title>By: James N. Markels</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12364</link>
		<dc:creator>James N. Markels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12364</guid>
		<description>This seems like more of a last-ditch appeal than a meritorious one.  The facts are juicy, but in the end there is no constitutional law question here.

The &quot;alienation of affection&quot; claim seems ultimately like a &quot;tortious interference with contractual relations&quot; claim to me.  Marriages are very contractual in nature -- Jewish marriages are explicitly so.  Seems like a straightforward state issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This seems like more of a last-ditch appeal than a meritorious one.  The facts are juicy, but in the end there is no constitutional law question here.</p>
<p>The &#8220;alienation of affection&#8221; claim seems ultimately like a &#8220;tortious interference with contractual relations&#8221; claim to me.  Marriages are very contractual in nature &#8212; Jewish marriages are explicitly so.  Seems like a straightforward state issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Jaros</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12363</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Jaros</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 12:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12363</guid>
		<description>I seriously doubt that the enactors of the Due Process clause intended it to negate state laws re adultery, so IMO the court should not take this guy&#039;s appeal. there&#039;s no federal issue her.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I seriously doubt that the enactors of the Due Process clause intended it to negate state laws re adultery, so IMO the court should not take this guy&#8217;s appeal. there&#8217;s no federal issue her.</p>
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		<title>By: Sar Atchinson</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12359</link>
		<dc:creator>Sar Atchinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:17:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12359</guid>
		<description>There is absolutely no chance the Court will take the case.  Prurient interest aside, the issue is not one of national importance, there is no split, and the federal constitutional question was barely raised and addressed below.  Not to mention, this is not an issue of criminal law, as in &lt;i&gt;Lawrence&lt;/i&gt;, but of state tort law.  This is one of those silly cases that people get excited about because of the subject matter, but it&#039;s clearly not certworthy.  Look for a quick deny when it comes up on the docket, and certainly no stay from the Court in the meantime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is absolutely no chance the Court will take the case.  Prurient interest aside, the issue is not one of national importance, there is no split, and the federal constitutional question was barely raised and addressed below.  Not to mention, this is not an issue of criminal law, as in <i>Lawrence</i>, but of state tort law.  This is one of those silly cases that people get excited about because of the subject matter, but it&#8217;s clearly not certworthy.  Look for a quick deny when it comes up on the docket, and certainly no stay from the Court in the meantime.</p>
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		<title>By: Chee Foong Chew</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12358</link>
		<dc:creator>Chee Foong Chew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 08:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12358</guid>
		<description>Intriguing case, from the facts of the case as presented in the Mississippi Supreme Court, I am surprised that the jurors concluded that it did.

As far as I can tell,the evidence that he lured her and caused her to alienate her affection for him is circumstantial at best. 

But back to the constitutional issue, I guess it&#039;s up to Justice Kennedy again, can states punish adultery? More over, can it punish one party of an adulterous affair and leave the other one alone?

Out of curiousity, what are the stats on cases like this in the 6 states that practice this law?

Because I can envision plenty of claims coming from the wife claiming that the &quot;other&quot; woman alienating affection of their husband by luring their husbands by being younger, more beautiful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intriguing case, from the facts of the case as presented in the Mississippi Supreme Court, I am surprised that the jurors concluded that it did.</p>
<p>As far as I can tell,the evidence that he lured her and caused her to alienate her affection for him is circumstantial at best. </p>
<p>But back to the constitutional issue, I guess it&#8217;s up to Justice Kennedy again, can states punish adultery? More over, can it punish one party of an adulterous affair and leave the other one alone?</p>
<p>Out of curiousity, what are the stats on cases like this in the 6 states that practice this law?</p>
<p>Because I can envision plenty of claims coming from the wife claiming that the &#8220;other&#8221; woman alienating affection of their husband by luring their husbands by being younger, more beautiful.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Goldberger</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/comment-page-1/#comment-12355</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Goldberger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 04:16:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/an-ancient-wrong-and-the-constitution/#comment-12355</guid>
		<description>If I understand the history of the case correctly, the jury decided that the woman in question was Valentine&#039;s Day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I understand the history of the case correctly, the jury decided that the woman in question was Valentine&#8217;s Day.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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