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	<title>Comments on: Secret court won&#8217;t release spying orders</title>
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		<title>By: Bart DePalma</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13704</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart DePalma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 22:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Roger:
United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972), addressed whether the 4th Amendment required a warrant for surveillance in &quot;internal security matters&quot; such as subversion of our sedition against the government.  The Court did not hold that the 4th Amendment required a warrant for surveillance of suspected agents of foreign groups of any nationality for the primary purpose of foreign intelligence gathering.  Indeed, the subsequent Truong line of cases in the Circuit Courts of Appeal held that the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for foreign intelligence gathering.
In sum, neither the 4th Amendment nor Article I anywhere grants Congress the power to direct who may and may not be the target of surveillance for the purposes of foreign intelligence gathering.  Consequently, FISA is unconstitutional to the extent that it attempts to limit or eliminate the President&#039;s executive and CiC power to direct foreign intelligence gathering.  Judge Bates and a number of FISA judges before him appear to recognize that fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger:</p>
<p>United States v. United States District Court, 407 U.S. 297 (1972), addressed whether the 4th Amendment required a warrant for surveillance in &#8220;internal security matters&#8221; such as subversion of our sedition against the government.  The Court did not hold that the 4th Amendment required a warrant for surveillance of suspected agents of foreign groups of any nationality for the primary purpose of foreign intelligence gathering.  Indeed, the subsequent Truong line of cases in the Circuit Courts of Appeal held that the 4th Amendment does not require warrants for foreign intelligence gathering.</p>
<p>In sum, neither the 4th Amendment nor Article I anywhere grants Congress the power to direct who may and may not be the target of surveillance for the purposes of foreign intelligence gathering.  Consequently, FISA is unconstitutional to the extent that it attempts to limit or eliminate the President&#8217;s executive and CiC power to direct foreign intelligence gathering.  Judge Bates and a number of FISA judges before him appear to recognize that fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Roger Friedman</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13695</link>
		<dc:creator>Roger Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2007 05:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bart&#039;s second comment (#4) turns the history of FISA upside down.  The Executive has always claimed inherent authority to wiretap.  Since Katz v. US, this has been rejected for domestic law enforcement.  Since US v. US District Court, this has been rejected for foreign intelligence surveillance of US persons.  When Congress passed FISA, it recognized that the Executive made such a claim but nonetheless asserted that its domestic and foreign surveillance laws covered the entire subject of wiretapping.  Whether there is any source of power for the Executive to act contrary to the will of Congress (and whether there is any judicial remedy against the exercise of such an asserted power) has not been adjudicated.  So the idea that compliance with FISA is &quot;largely voluntary&quot; is unsupported in law.  Frankly, I think the proper remedy against executive supremacists such as Jose Rodriguez and John Yoo is impreachment, under color of law they have violated the norms of democratic government.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bart&#8217;s second comment (#4) turns the history of FISA upside down.  The Executive has always claimed inherent authority to wiretap.  Since Katz v. US, this has been rejected for domestic law enforcement.  Since US v. US District Court, this has been rejected for foreign intelligence surveillance of US persons.  When Congress passed FISA, it recognized that the Executive made such a claim but nonetheless asserted that its domestic and foreign surveillance laws covered the entire subject of wiretapping.  Whether there is any source of power for the Executive to act contrary to the will of Congress (and whether there is any judicial remedy against the exercise of such an asserted power) has not been adjudicated.  So the idea that compliance with FISA is &#8220;largely voluntary&#8221; is unsupported in law.  Frankly, I think the proper remedy against executive supremacists such as Jose Rodriguez and John Yoo is impreachment, under color of law they have violated the norms of democratic government.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart DePalma</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13672</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart DePalma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:24:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13672</guid>
		<description>Glenn Edwards:
&lt;I&gt;My favorite bit of reasoning â€” one which you left out, Lyle â€” is that if he were to rule that there were a First Amendment right of access to the FISCâ€™s legal rulings, then the Executive Branch might just stop seeking warrants for its surveillance activities â€” i.e., just say to hell with FISA. Granted, with this administration thatâ€™s an utterly plausible premise, but the notion that a federal judge should allow his determination of the scope of a constitutional right to be based on the fact that the President might then blatantly disobey the law is certainly a novel addition to our jurisprudence.&lt;/I&gt;
I also thought this reasoning was interesting, but for different reasons.  Judge Bates appears to be joining the other FISC judges who testified before the Senate in recognizing that the President has plenary power over foreign intelligence gathering and that FISA cannot limit that power.  Judge Bates recognizes that the President&#039;s participation in the FISA process is largely voluntary and he could again decide not to allow the FISC to supervise the NSA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glenn Edwards:</p>
<p><i>My favorite bit of reasoning â€” one which you left out, Lyle â€” is that if he were to rule that there were a First Amendment right of access to the FISCâ€™s legal rulings, then the Executive Branch might just stop seeking warrants for its surveillance activities â€” i.e., just say to hell with FISA. Granted, with this administration thatâ€™s an utterly plausible premise, but the notion that a federal judge should allow his determination of the scope of a constitutional right to be based on the fact that the President might then blatantly disobey the law is certainly a novel addition to our jurisprudence.</i></p>
<p>I also thought this reasoning was interesting, but for different reasons.  Judge Bates appears to be joining the other FISC judges who testified before the Senate in recognizing that the President has plenary power over foreign intelligence gathering and that FISA cannot limit that power.  Judge Bates recognizes that the President&#8217;s participation in the FISA process is largely voluntary and he could again decide not to allow the FISC to supervise the NSA.</p>
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		<title>By: Bart DePalma</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13671</link>
		<dc:creator>Bart DePalma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 01:18:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Judge Bates came to the singularly unremarkable conclusion that disclosing to al Qaeda the means and methods of intelligence gathering against al Qaeda would aid that enemy and seriously damage national security.
This decision slaps down the ridiculous fiction the NYT was hiding behind that their disclosure of the TSP did not give al Qaeda anything that they already did not possess.
It will be interesting to see if the district courts considering the various civil suits against the government and the telecoms will follow the lead of the court most familiar with the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the plaintiffs attempt discovery of top secret NSA intelligence operations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Judge Bates came to the singularly unremarkable conclusion that disclosing to al Qaeda the means and methods of intelligence gathering against al Qaeda would aid that enemy and seriously damage national security.</p>
<p>This decision slaps down the ridiculous fiction the NYT was hiding behind that their disclosure of the TSP did not give al Qaeda anything that they already did not possess.</p>
<p>It will be interesting to see if the district courts considering the various civil suits against the government and the telecoms will follow the lead of the court most familiar with the Terrorist Surveillance Program when the plaintiffs attempt discovery of top secret NSA intelligence operations.</p>
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		<title>By: Al Kaplan</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13670</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Kaplan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2007 00:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The question I would have to ask is why is the ACLU asking for such information? Perhaps on &quot;fishing&quot; expedition. The persons who have commented on Judge Bates&#039; refusal quickly cite to the First Amendment rights and of course to a little &quot;Bush&quot; bashing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The question I would have to ask is why is the ACLU asking for such information? Perhaps on &#8220;fishing&#8221; expedition. The persons who have commented on Judge Bates&#8217; refusal quickly cite to the First Amendment rights and of course to a little &#8220;Bush&#8221; bashing.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Edwards</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2007/12/secret-court-wont-release-spying-orders/#comment-13629</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:49:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>What a remarkably obtuse and/or disingenuous decision by Bates.  Well, he serves his masters well.  I mean, who could have predicted that a judge appointed by Bush and put on the FISC by Roberts would write an opinion so completely abdicating any independent role for the courts and so utterly deferential to the Executive Branch? Shocking, no?
My favorite bit of reasoning -- one which you left out, Lyle -- is that if he were to rule that there were a First Amendment right of access to the FISC&#039;s legal rulings, then the Executive Branch might just stop seeking warrants for its surveillance activities -- i.e., just say to hell with FISA.  Granted, with this administration that&#039;s an utterly plausible premise, but the notion that a federal judge should allow his determination of the scope of a constitutional right to be based on the fact that the President might then blatantly disobey the law is certainly a novel addition to our jurisprudence.  One which the Bush administration will find many uses for, one imagines.
My other favorite piece of &quot;logic&quot; (since Bates&#039; opinion places such emphasis on that word) is that, since the FISC has been generally secretive since its creation 1978, there can therefore be no &quot;tradition&quot; of access for First Amendment purposes.  So, all you have to do to shield your activities from public scrutiny is (1) create a new court (or agency, or what have you), and (2) start right away with denying public access to its records.  Never mind that your activities -- such as, oh, pronouncing the scope and meaning of federal law -- are ones that traditionally the public has had access to.  No, as long as you never allow that pesky tradition of access to your new court to develop, you&#039;re home free.  Neat trick! One, again, that I imagine the Bush administration will have many ideas for utilizing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What a remarkably obtuse and/or disingenuous decision by Bates.  Well, he serves his masters well.  I mean, who could have predicted that a judge appointed by Bush and put on the FISC by Roberts would write an opinion so completely abdicating any independent role for the courts and so utterly deferential to the Executive Branch? Shocking, no?  </p>
<p>My favorite bit of reasoning &#8212; one which you left out, Lyle &#8212; is that if he were to rule that there were a First Amendment right of access to the FISC&#8217;s legal rulings, then the Executive Branch might just stop seeking warrants for its surveillance activities &#8212; i.e., just say to hell with FISA.  Granted, with this administration that&#8217;s an utterly plausible premise, but the notion that a federal judge should allow his determination of the scope of a constitutional right to be based on the fact that the President might then blatantly disobey the law is certainly a novel addition to our jurisprudence.  One which the Bush administration will find many uses for, one imagines.</p>
<p>My other favorite piece of &#8220;logic&#8221; (since Bates&#8217; opinion places such emphasis on that word) is that, since the FISC has been generally secretive since its creation 1978, there can therefore be no &#8220;tradition&#8221; of access for First Amendment purposes.  So, all you have to do to shield your activities from public scrutiny is (1) create a new court (or agency, or what have you), and (2) start right away with denying public access to its records.  Never mind that your activities &#8212; such as, oh, pronouncing the scope and meaning of federal law &#8212; are ones that traditionally the public has had access to.  No, as long as you never allow that pesky tradition of access to your new court to develop, you&#8217;re home free.  Neat trick! One, again, that I imagine the Bush administration will have many ideas for utilizing.</p>
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