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	<title>Comments on: More on Today&#8217;s Opinion in Samson v. California</title>
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	<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/</link>
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		<title>By: leviathan</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9919</link>
		<dc:creator>leviathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 16:36:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9919</guid>
		<description>ksp205 writes:&quot;...in the early 19th century NY had a &quot;good-time&quot; law, rewarding inmates with time off their sentence for good behavior. See http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html.&quot;  Credit for &quot;good time&quot; is not parole.
ksp205 also writes: &quot;...we know that at least Massachusetts had parole officers by 1837.&quot;  Do you have a citation for a Massachusettsâ€™s statute that authorized parole in 1837?  I based my statement on 2 Neil P. Cohen, The Law of Probation and Parole, Â§ 1:12 (2d ed. 1999) (â€œParoleâ€™s initial use [in the United States] came in 1876â€¦â€)
When I referred to public transportation, I was thinking of government owned subways relied on by the least advantaged among us, not our airports where crippled old ladies with metal plates in their bodies are forced to strip, although any suspicion of dangerousness is totally absurd and should be causing lawyers as a group to march on Washington.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ksp205 writes:&#8221;&#8230;in the early 19th century NY had a &#8220;good-time&#8221; law, rewarding inmates with time off their sentence for good behavior. See <a href="http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html." rel="nofollow">http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html.</a>&#8221;  Credit for &#8220;good time&#8221; is not parole.</p>
<p>ksp205 also writes: &#8220;&#8230;we know that at least Massachusetts had parole officers by 1837.&#8221;  Do you have a citation for a Massachusettsâ€™s statute that authorized parole in 1837?  I based my statement on 2 Neil P. Cohen, The Law of Probation and Parole, Â§ 1:12 (2d ed. 1999) (â€œParoleâ€™s initial use [in the United States] came in 1876â€¦â€)</p>
<p>When I referred to public transportation, I was thinking of government owned subways relied on by the least advantaged among us, not our airports where crippled old ladies with metal plates in their bodies are forced to strip, although any suspicion of dangerousness is totally absurd and should be causing lawyers as a group to march on Washington.</p>
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		<title>By: ward</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9918</link>
		<dc:creator>ward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9918</guid>
		<description>One other factor to consider is that if states cannot include these types of conditions it may limit situations in which the state is willing to risk paroling inmates. Thus, this decision may actually be positive from a standpoint of correctional policy.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One other factor to consider is that if states cannot include these types of conditions it may limit situations in which the state is willing to risk paroling inmates. Thus, this decision may actually be positive from a standpoint of correctional policy.</p>
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		<title>By: federalist</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9917</link>
		<dc:creator>federalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 22:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>With respect to the courthouse searches, there is one difference that is probably relevant--parolees are continuously subject to warrantless searches/jurors in a courthouse are only subject to such searches on a one-off basis.
I think that the fact that these guys are criminals who have not yet &quot;paid their debt to society&quot; is the most salient fact.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With respect to the courthouse searches, there is one difference that is probably relevant&#8211;parolees are continuously subject to warrantless searches/jurors in a courthouse are only subject to such searches on a one-off basis.</p>
<p>I think that the fact that these guys are criminals who have not yet &#8220;paid their debt to society&#8221; is the most salient fact.</p>
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		<title>By: Kent Scheidegger</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9916</link>
		<dc:creator>Kent Scheidegger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 21:17:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Sampson really changes nothing as far as 4th amendment motions here in California...(closing foootnote) but Court&#039;s and Prosecutor&#039;s may see it as the openning they need to eliminate 4th amendment protections for Californians.&quot;
Slippery slope arguments are sometimes valid, but I really can&#039;t see how this slope is at all slippery.  There is a simple, bright, clear difference between law-abiding people and those who have been convicted of felonies and placed in the custody of the Department of Corrections, whether they be physically behind bars or on parole.
The most intrusive suspicionless search presently authoritized, in my view, is the search on entering the courthouse.  Unlike airports, many of the people entering courthouses are not there voluntarily.  Jurors, witnesses, and defendants (both civil and criminal) have been summoned or subpoenaed.  Unlike the &lt;i&gt;Samson&lt;/i&gt; case, many of them have done nothing wrong.  Yet these searches are authorized.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Sampson really changes nothing as far as 4th amendment motions here in California&#8230;(closing foootnote) but Court&#8217;s and Prosecutor&#8217;s may see it as the openning they need to eliminate 4th amendment protections for Californians.&#8221;</p>
<p>Slippery slope arguments are sometimes valid, but I really can&#8217;t see how this slope is at all slippery.  There is a simple, bright, clear difference between law-abiding people and those who have been convicted of felonies and placed in the custody of the Department of Corrections, whether they be physically behind bars or on parole.</p>
<p>The most intrusive suspicionless search presently authoritized, in my view, is the search on entering the courthouse.  Unlike airports, many of the people entering courthouses are not there voluntarily.  Jurors, witnesses, and defendants (both civil and criminal) have been summoned or subpoenaed.  Unlike the <i>Samson</i> case, many of them have done nothing wrong.  Yet these searches are authorized.</p>
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		<title>By: ksp205</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9915</link>
		<dc:creator>ksp205</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Leviathan states: &quot;Parole did not exist in the United States when the 14th Amendment was ratified.&quot;
That&#039;s not entirely true.  For example, in the early 19th century NY had a &quot;good-time&quot; law, rewarding inmates with time off their sentence for good behavior.  See http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html.
I don&#039;t know how widespread these laws were, but we know that at least Massachusetts had parole officers by 1837.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leviathan states: &#8220;Parole did not exist in the United States when the 14th Amendment was ratified.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not entirely true.  For example, in the early 19th century NY had a &#8220;good-time&#8221; law, rewarding inmates with time off their sentence for good behavior.  See <a href="http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html" rel="nofollow">http://parole.state.ny.us/INTROhistory.html</a>.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how widespread these laws were, but we know that at least Massachusetts had parole officers by 1837.</p>
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		<title>By: leviathan</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9914</link>
		<dc:creator>leviathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 20:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9914</guid>
		<description>Which is more erosive of our liberty: forcing a lawabiding citizen to submit to a suspicionless search for the privilege of riding public transportation, or requiring a parolee to submit to a suspicionless search for the privilege of walking a public street?  Parole did not exist in the United States when the 14th Amendment was ratified.  Does it make any sense to argue that, by ratifying the 14th Amendment, the States agreed that, if they ever in the future permitted the parole of offenders, that they could not condition parole on submission to random searches?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which is more erosive of our liberty: forcing a lawabiding citizen to submit to a suspicionless search for the privilege of riding public transportation, or requiring a parolee to submit to a suspicionless search for the privilege of walking a public street?  Parole did not exist in the United States when the 14th Amendment was ratified.  Does it make any sense to argue that, by ratifying the 14th Amendment, the States agreed that, if they ever in the future permitted the parole of offenders, that they could not condition parole on submission to random searches?</p>
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		<title>By: DJMIII</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9913</link>
		<dc:creator>DJMIII</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 19:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9913</guid>
		<description>As is often the case, the US Supremes have now twice ( Sampson, and  Davis/Hammond) issued high profile cases that will try our souls as defense attorneys while the government explores new ways to fit every case within the &quot;exception&quot; to our Constitutional Rights.
If the Founders wished the 4th Amendment rights to be so very circumscribed by the government...perhaps they would not have used...&quot;shall not be violated&quot;.
Sampson really changes nothing as far as 4th amendment motions here in California...(closing foootnote) but Court&#039;s and Prosecutor&#039;s may see it as the openning they need to eliminate 4th amendment protections for Californians. How do we identify and distinguish the &quot;arbitrary and capricious&quot; from the &quot;vigorous enforcement&quot;?
As for Davis...it will open the Confrontation Clause to every bit as much chicanary as did the &quot;Roberts&quot; reliability standards.
If the Founding Fathers wanted &quot;Confrontation&quot; limited to &quot;testimonial&quot; statements that were the product of &quot;interrogations&quot; perhaps they would have chosen different language.
If the staement is offered for the truth of the matter stated, and the statement is material to guilt or innocence...confrontation is the only Constitutionally permissible process.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As is often the case, the US Supremes have now twice ( Sampson, and  Davis/Hammond) issued high profile cases that will try our souls as defense attorneys while the government explores new ways to fit every case within the &#8220;exception&#8221; to our Constitutional Rights.</p>
<p>If the Founders wished the 4th Amendment rights to be so very circumscribed by the government&#8230;perhaps they would not have used&#8230;&#8221;shall not be violated&#8221;.</p>
<p>Sampson really changes nothing as far as 4th amendment motions here in California&#8230;(closing foootnote) but Court&#8217;s and Prosecutor&#8217;s may see it as the openning they need to eliminate 4th amendment protections for Californians. How do we identify and distinguish the &#8220;arbitrary and capricious&#8221; from the &#8220;vigorous enforcement&#8221;?</p>
<p>As for Davis&#8230;it will open the Confrontation Clause to every bit as much chicanary as did the &#8220;Roberts&#8221; reliability standards.</p>
<p>If the Founding Fathers wanted &#8220;Confrontation&#8221; limited to &#8220;testimonial&#8221; statements that were the product of &#8220;interrogations&#8221; perhaps they would have chosen different language.</p>
<p>If the staement is offered for the truth of the matter stated, and the statement is material to guilt or innocence&#8230;confrontation is the only Constitutionally permissible process.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Kennedy</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9912</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Kennedy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 17:27:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9912</guid>
		<description>At the end of his dissent, Stevens states that suspicionless searchs may be appropriate for some kinds of offenders:
&quot;Likewise, this might have been a different case had a court or parole board imposed the condition at issue based on specific knowledge of the individualâ€™s criminal history and projected likelihood of reoffending, or if the State had had in place programmatic safeguards to ensure evenhandedness.&quot;
This statement seems to deflate his entire argument, as he is basically conceding the suspicionless searches are legitimate in some circumstances - ultimately he simply disagrees that they are necessary in this case
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the end of his dissent, Stevens states that suspicionless searchs may be appropriate for some kinds of offenders:</p>
<p>&#8220;Likewise, this might have been a different case had a court or parole board imposed the condition at issue based on specific knowledge of the individualâ€™s criminal history and projected likelihood of reoffending, or if the State had had in place programmatic safeguards to ensure evenhandedness.&#8221;</p>
<p>This statement seems to deflate his entire argument, as he is basically conceding the suspicionless searches are legitimate in some circumstances &#8211; ultimately he simply disagrees that they are necessary in this case</p>
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		<title>By: federalist</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9911</link>
		<dc:creator>federalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 15:45:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The policy observations I made were simply observations, not arguments as to why the decision was right in my view.  The constitutional argument goes to whether incarceration has a fixed meaning under the Constitution, which I think debatable.
Stevens is all bent out of shape because in the prison context we search for contraband, weapons etc. to protect other prisoners and prison guards, and that supposedly is the raison d&#039;etre to the idea that prisoners can be searched at any time, but why do prison guards and other prisoners get more protection than your average ordinary citizen?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The policy observations I made were simply observations, not arguments as to why the decision was right in my view.  The constitutional argument goes to whether incarceration has a fixed meaning under the Constitution, which I think debatable.</p>
<p>Stevens is all bent out of shape because in the prison context we search for contraband, weapons etc. to protect other prisoners and prison guards, and that supposedly is the raison d&#8217;etre to the idea that prisoners can be searched at any time, but why do prison guards and other prisoners get more protection than your average ordinary citizen?</p>
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		<title>By: Marc Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://www.scotusblog.com/2006/06/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9910</link>
		<dc:creator>Marc Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 13:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/uncategorized/more-on-todays-opinion-in-samson-v-california/#comment-9910</guid>
		<description>The majority&#039;s Constitutional argument seems to be sound. Clearly, the search would have been permitted had the parolee still been in prison. Parole is simply a continuation of the punishment with less restrictive conditions. The state ought to be able to decide what those conditions will be. It&#039;s hard to see the parade of horribles that the dissent is worried about. For ordinary citizens who are not on parole, the Fourth Amendment still applies as it always has.
Now, as a matter of policy (which is not the Court&#039;s concern), is this a good idea? I don&#039;t know, but Commentator&#039;s argument that parolees will simply get better at concealing crimes seems to be a long stretch. I am also not aware of any serious study demonstrating that Three Strikes laws have made the murder rate go up.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority&#8217;s Constitutional argument seems to be sound. Clearly, the search would have been permitted had the parolee still been in prison. Parole is simply a continuation of the punishment with less restrictive conditions. The state ought to be able to decide what those conditions will be. It&#8217;s hard to see the parade of horribles that the dissent is worried about. For ordinary citizens who are not on parole, the Fourth Amendment still applies as it always has.</p>
<p>Now, as a matter of policy (which is not the Court&#8217;s concern), is this a good idea? I don&#8217;t know, but Commentator&#8217;s argument that parolees will simply get better at concealing crimes seems to be a long stretch. I am also not aware of any serious study demonstrating that Three Strikes laws have made the murder rate go up.</p>
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